the marketing attractions podcast

Conversations on How Nonprofit Attractions Drive Attendance Through Marketing

What Marketing Should Look for in their Next Ticketing System

One of the pain points for marketing teams always seems to be their organization’s ticketing system. They can’t get the customer data and/or they can’t attribute back online ticket sales to online advertising.

We brought in Michelle Paul from BackOffice Thinking to get her thoughts on how marketing can get the most out of their ticketing system. 

We cover:

  • A few good and not-so-good reasons to switch ticketing systems 
  • The common mistakes organizations make when looking for a new system 
  • Many ticketing systems can cover our ‘marketing wishlist’, but we need to know how to utilize it

Sign up for BackOffice Thinking’s e-book on successfully changing technology here.


This podcast is produced by attend media.

attend helps nonprofit attractions drive visitation through paid media. Download our free guide to media planning for nonprofit attractions at our site – attend.media

Episode Transcript:

You’re listening to the Marketing Attractions podcast. Conversations on how nonprofit attractions are increasing attendance and sharing their missions through marketing. Your hosts are Ryan Dick and Jenny Williams of AttendMedia. Jenny, today’s topic, what marketing should look for in their next ticketing system? Jenny, why are we talking about ticketing systems? This is an exciting topic for us to dive into. We’re no expert here by any means, but I think as we’ve gotten deeper into this space and have talked to a lot of leaders and marketing teams at nonprofit attractions, I think a big pain point that has come up multiple times, no matter who we’re talking to, is really round ticketing systems. Some could just be, there’s not a lot of communication in between teams or lack of education around what some of these platforms can do, but I think from marketing teams specifically, we’ve heard a lot of frustrations around what they’re not able to get out of their systems. Then I think also just growth, as an organization grows, they tend to outgrow a lot of these platforms quickly. In fact, we’re hearing summer changing every two to three years almost to be able to do the things that they’re trying to implement at their organization. Excited to talk really today with more of an expert around these platforms and what options are available and what are the things that we should be looking for and asking for when we’re really looking at switching this type of software? Yeah, I like what you said because we think we’re pretty smart. We’re marketing these museums, museums, gardens, but the reality is we’re not in that four wall building every day. We’re not inside the marketing department. So kind of understanding, getting some clarity on the pain points that some of these teams might be going through, we need some outside help. So we brought in a guest, Michelle Paul. She’s the vice president of growth strategy at Back Office, thinking she’s joining us on the program right now. Michelle, welcome. Thanks for the time. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. All right, Michelle. Well, let’s just jump into it and start off with what are some of the common reasons that nonprofit attractions are switching ticketing platforms again? Some of these are switching every two to three years. What are you hearing when they come to you? Yeah, absolutely. And so to be clear, I’m also not within the four walls or gates or whatever the boundaries of that institution are, right? Back office thinking helps nonprofit organizations make better use of technology to support their missions. So for us, this includes designing websites, implementing CRM systems, providing ongoing tech support maintenance and most relevant for this conversation, consulting on overall technology strategy. So a lot of what I do is helping organizations create a roadmap figure out which of those other technology things they actually need to prioritize first. As a company, we are technology agnostic, which means that we don’t favor any particular system while we certainly tend to do more hands-on work with some systems more than others. Our assessment work is purposely broad, drawing on that experience across a wide variety of organizations using a wide variety of tools. And my own background in expertise is, and my own heart, is primarily in the arts and culture world for nearly 20 years now. I’ve been helping nonprofit arts organizations adopt technology solutions around ticketing, membership, CRM, marketing, and all those related needs. So I have seen it all. So I think to answer your question about, you know, what are the reasons these nonprofit attractions are switching ticketing platforms? I think there’s, I’m going to be a little judgy here, right out of the gate, because I think that there’s good reasons, I think there’s okay reasons, and I think there are some not so great reasons for this, depending on where the organization is coming from. So to me, the good reasons are a little bit of what you kind of hinted at. A good reason is something strategic. So it might be that the organization has sat down and made a strategic plan or made a roadmap for their technology and they’ve actually identified needs that are not being met today by their systems, or they’ve grown, right, and a system that had been meeting their needs at one point is clearly does not have the ability to match the scale of the organization today or the new offerings that they might have added in. Those are great reasons to consider making a change. What I’ll call okay reasons are the passage of time, you know, so if it were not in a two to three year cycle, and you’ve actually been using the same system for 12 years, for example, it’s probably possibly a little bit out of date, and probably it is not making your needs from a growth perspective, but more importantly, is it a modern system that is up to date that can do all of the things that systems can do today, right? That’s a reasonable reason to switch, even if you don’t exactly know why, right, or really, truly sometimes systems are being sunset, right? They’re not going to be maintained anymore. The organization doesn’t have a choice, but to make a change. Again, might not be the most strategically driven point at that moment, but at least it’s there’s a clear reason behind it. And then there’s the part that I’ll call bad reasons or the not so great reasons, which is sometimes staff changes, leadership changes, somebody comes in to an organization and says, “Oh, you’re using System XYZ?” Well, I’m familiar with System ABC, and that’s what I know and that’s what I love, and so we’re going to bring that in now the end. Or what I’ll call the grasses greener syndrome, just a general vague feeling that something isn’t right here, and things could be better. And surely another system, a different system, we’ll solve all of our problems and make everything good. So those kind of three main categories is what I see as the reasons for an organization to want to make a change. Yeah, and perhaps even like a, maybe in that kind of poor decision for it, it’s, it’s just kind of a lack of understanding of what that platform can do for you too. So maybe you weren’t involved in the decision for the current platform that’s being used, or you know, you haven’t got a full rundown of what it actually can do for you, or maybe the right questions just aren’t being asked to get out what you want, because I know we’ve talked to some that will say, like, yeah, we just switched ticketing systems to platform X, and now I can set up all my online conversion tracking, and I couldn’t do it with platform Y, and we’re like, no, we’re working with a client on platform Y, and that’s all set up, right? So I don’t know, it’s almost like there, some of these platforms, some of the software, maybe they’re just not as great at helping you build strategy around how to use it. They’re just more so answering, like, yes, we can do this or no, we can’t do that. But I don’t know, that seems like something that’s kind of common too, because I’ve definitely heard people say they couldn’t do something that we’re absolutely doing with another client who’s using that system. So I used to be kind of on that side of the conversation, actually, so I’ve been in consulting for four years now, but before that, I spent 15 years at a vendor actually making a ticketing and CRM system, and I can tell you, some of it is that people don’t read, some of it is that people don’t listen, and some of it really is just the kind of grass-as-greener thing, right? And sometimes it’s true, also sometimes systems don’t do things, I don’t want to say that that’s not the case, right? But in my experience, as the, you know, the vendor side trying desperately to communicate about updates and new features and releases and things like that, you have to be listening in order to know about them. One of the things that I always wish organizations would do if they get to the point for whatever reason, if they get to the point that they’re going out and looking and evaluating new systems, is if you’re going to do an RFP process, for example, please don’t, but we’ll talk about that later, if you’re going to do an RFP process, include your current vendor as one of the respondents to that RFP, because you don’t know what they can do, right? The set of features that you are using today, or the way that you’ve got your system set up today, may not reflect the system’s capabilities, and so giving yourselves the chance to not have to make a system migration, I think is really important in that, in that scheme of things, in terms of making that decision. We’ve kind of touched on a few things there, but I don’t know, grass is greener, this ticketing system looks really cool to shiny object, I’m just going to go do it. Maybe that’s the logic that some of our audience might have. What are some reasons why an organization won’t want to work with an outside consultant such as back office thinking to help them choose their next ticketing system? Certainly to avoid that impulse, right? Having someone come in to maybe slow you down. Again, one of my main goals, anytime doing a strategy assessment or system selection, can you not? Can we keep you where you are? Because change is hard. I like that. But I want to both plug my own services here and also kind of democratize it into this is stuff that organizations you can do this for yourself, right? The process here is thinking and talking and communicating and understanding and knowing things, right? A consultant can help you understand where you are today and kind of actually help, you know, are you looking into making this decision for a good or okay or bad reason, right? But you can be your own consultant first, right? You know your organization best. So asking good questions internally, getting a good sense of all different related departments and what their needs are and what their challenges are and what’s working today and what’s not working today. The time to bring in a consultant is either to validate a decision that you’ve maybe mostly made, but you want a little bit of a, you know, blessing from outside of that or possibly streamlining a decision process. There are a lot of ticketing systems out there in the world. I used to joke that basically you could take the word ticket and put like any noun or verb before or after it and you will probably have named a real life ticketing system. So there’s a lot out there. So working with consultant can help streamline that and kind of narrowing down the universe to a set of things that you should be focusing on. And then thirdly also just getting on stock, right? If you can’t even get yourselves that far, if you can’t get to the point of validation or you can’t get to the point of streamlining a question, then maybe it is time to bring in some outside help to be the one to lead that process and ask the questions and bring everybody to the table. So you’re going to help an organization not only select, but how about once that is selected, are you helping them onboard and understand how to use this properly? Are they getting all that training from the ticketing platform? Like, where kind of how long are you hand holding a client through this? It really depends on the system on, and I’ll even say on the solution. One of the notes that I had kind of made to myself when we were prepping for this is what is a ticketing system? Really? Not to get philosophical, but you know, there’s, there’s ticketing systems and then there’s overall solutions that are needed by organizations in order to meet all the needs that you have, right? And I’ll just rattle off those ticketing and membership and fundraising and volunteer management and class registration and, you know, all of these different pieces of everything coming together. Most systems don’t do everything equally well. So very often, the right solution for an organization is a suite of tools that are interoperable and integratable and work together. And that would be a good reason to use a back office thinking, right? Because it’s not necessarily just one thing. It’s helping to have things talk to each other or integrate those things. You know, there are some platforms. There are some technology vendors that do their own implementation, that do their own support, that do their own training. You can get that all in-house and we don’t want to get in the way of that, right? We want to, if we want to help you find the best resource for the kind of help that you need. So there’s certain kinds of things where you might need to help doing through the implementation process. Or just even a ride along, we’ll call it sometimes, right? Like if the vendor might do the project, but if you need help with data extraction or decision making or just understanding how things are going to work together, just being that kind of one step removed bird’s eye view of going through that process, we love to help with that. You gone through this process. I’m assuming quite a bit. What are some of the common mistakes that you’re seeing organizations make when selecting a new ticketing system? Some of that is probably implied by my first answer in terms of the grass being greener, right? And assuming that everything will be perfect in the new world. I think there’s a couple of main things, which is not understanding priorities and sometimes getting swept away by buzzwords and hot new terminology, features and functionality rather than matching the system features to your actual requirements and capabilities. I think is one of the main things that happens. And another thing that happens is only trying to solve one problem at a time. So, and that’s why I ask the question of like, what is the ticketing system? Because there’s a couple of versions of this that I see, but it’s all the same story of not bringing the right people to the table. Sometimes it’s that an organization has decided that technology is technology and technology is scary and technology is something that belongs in the realm of IT exclusively. And thereby, kind of limits the input from other teams that are going to be the actual primary users of the system and just kind of concentrates the whole process just in the realm of, you know, and I speak, I say this as a tech nerd of the tech nerds, right? Like, no, no, you don’t only want that voice to be there. So that’s one flavor of it. But another flavor of it is acting like a ticketing system is only a ticketing system. And I think this is closer to the problems that you guys end up encountering, right? Which is there’s the ticketing system that’s going to let people give you money in exchange for a visit, right? Or give you money in exchange for a membership or whatever the needs of ticketing in front of how it’s got services or you want to call it, right? But marketing is really important to all of that, right? Understanding like without, broadly speaking, probably without marketing who’s going to buy the tickets. And it’s worth noting there also on a say we’re talking about nonprofit attractions here, right? I think there’s two entirely different realms of audiences of marketing. There’s more than two, but of marketing in this way, right? Because as a nonprofit, there’s one realm of your business that is focused on ongoing long term multifaceted relationships, right? Members, donors, volunteers, these folks that become a core audience for the organization. And that’s where we get into the like CRM realm, right? The real customer data, like overtime relationship stuff going on. But also for most nonprofit attractions, there’s a huge amount of audience and revenue that comes from basically single ticket buyers, right? Like the mass audience, the people who either are not there yet in the relationship realm or maybe are not even candidates for that, right? If you’re operating a zoo or garden or anything that it brings in tourists audience, your goal with that is not necessarily to build a long term member of relationship, right? It’s to get as many of those people coming to you instead of any of the other things that they could possibly be doing that day. And so that flavor of marketing of getting the word out of paid placement and other things like that requires a different set of features and data and approach to the work. And those are both important, right? There’s not, there can be a hierarchy of needs, not every organization, like every any given organization is going to have a different balance of where that sits in their kind of priority list in their budget, right? And so knowing who you are, right? Like know thyself as an organization is kind of the answer there. Common mistakes come about when organizations don’t. Getting ahead of yourself and not knowing who you are and what you need by not having enough people involved in the conversation is the biggest place where things go wrong. You’re listening to the Marketing Attractions podcast. Conversations on how non-profit attractions are increasing attendance and sharing their mission through marketing. Your hosts are Ryan Dick and Jenny Williams of attend media. Attend media is a media planning and buying agency, specializing in zoos, aquariums, gardens and museums. For more information please visit attend.media. Now back to Ryan and Jenny. Michelle, I like how you kind of broke out the two different lenses to look at a ticketing system or maybe even a CRM system in the eyes of marketing. Yes, on one side there is that donor relationship, that volunteer relationship, more of a long term nurture. And then you mentioned on the other side, that single ticket sale, like getting people through the turn style, getting into the attraction. And Jenny, I think that’s the world that we primarily play in is getting that first time visitor through and letting our guest experience team, sell that membership and hopefully move them over into more of a long term relationship with the non-profit attraction. Let’s look at what would be your wish list, Jenny, of the features we would need to see from a pure marketing, first time visitor standpoint in a ticketing system. What are some of the holes that we’re seeing in the ticketing system from just a pure marketing standpoint? Yeah, whether it’s campaigns we worked on or just talking marketing directors about limitations that they have in terms of getting data from their tools and systems. And again, selfishly, I think with us focus on paid media, paid advertising, we’re really focused on that single ticket sale. So what are the limitations that we see when it comes to that? But I think one is just kind of online attribution, right? So I’m running a digital campaign. I’m driving traffic to the website for a lot of people. That’s where it ends, right? They say I can’t set up tracking in that checkout process because of my ticketing platform. It moves over to another page, another checkout page and it’s separate from what we own. And so we can’t set up that tracking, right? So all they really do with their online media is drive it to a landing page and then whatever happens from there, they don’t know. So we are working with some clients here. So though we’re tracking all the way down to the buy tickets now button, but we’re not getting the information if they actually completed the purchase. Possibly, right? Some might just have it set up for a landing page or can they get all the way down to a buy ticket and then it goes somewhere else. Right? Just depends on how that site set up. But yeah, then you lose everything after that. But ideally, you’ve got it where it goes all the way through and oftentimes what happens is it’s really just kind of a lack of, or I guess in some cases, it could be a lack of education from that software in terms of what you need to do next. But in many cases, what we found is we can just set up a separate Google Tag Manager container on that checkout page from that ticketing software and we can mimic that checkout process and now we can set up all the tags on our end. So I think if you’re thinking that the software itself is going to set all of this tracking up for you, I think that’s where you have to realize that’s never going to happen, but they’ll give you the documentation for you to be able to do it. At least that’s what we’ve experienced for the platforms that can. If they drop those pixels, there’s nothing we could do about that, right? But that’s one. So I think just making sure that you’re asking about or letting them know that when you want to look at online tracking and attribution, it’s not just from a Google Analytics standpoint, you want Tag Manager set up to place a pixel to track back to Google, back to Meta, back to your online platforms. So I think that’s a really big one, especially as more tickets are purchased online versus at the gate and more budgets are being spent in digital media. But another one that we’re seeing, I guess in relation to that would be revenue tracking. So if we’ve got that online attribution, that tagging that pixel tracking set up, then we can actually set up tracking to where we can actually pull in the actual revenue from it. So it’s not just, hey, the button was hit to drive that ticket, but also, and it sold $60 worth of tickets, right? So we can start seeing that tree return on ads bin with our media. So from like a paid media perspective, I would say those are like the two key ones, but two. I would say just on that note for one second, you know, that’s not only just bringing marketing to the table in that case, that’s like, bring finance to the table because there are the ones who care about where the budget that they’ve authorized is going and being able to tell an actual ROI story of, yes, we are doing paid advertising and we are spending this much and we are making this much as a result that there’s a lot of these organizations that should care about that, right? So so true, so true. We should be talking about it. It will be honest, I guess, but just kind of tying these two points together, like this idea of online attribution and then taking it to the next level of like just being able to report on revenue, if we’re only able to see, hey, they clicked on my Facebook ad, went to the page and then maybe click the buy now button or we’re just tracking they went to the page, we don’t know if that was one ticket that was sold on the value night or if that was 10 tickets that was sold for the whole family is getting together. So that value of that click really becomes muddied or just not as strong as a data point of better understanding how much revenue or you mentioned ROI or return on ad spend. So I think that’s something that maybe sometimes our audience kind of, it gets a little lost in translation sometimes in the complexity of these ticketing systems doesn’t help. And I think it’s part of this is not every organization needs that because not every organization is going to make use of it. But any organization that is talking with you guys and bringing you in to work with them, I think helping them understand that they have already made a decision to do the spend part of this. And so therefore they, you know, if I was working with them as a consultant and an assessment case here, right, that would be the huge glaring note to me saying, okay, this is the thing that is important to you. This is the thing that you care about. Therefore, specifically, if you’re not able to do exactly what you guys just said in terms of taking it all, taking the tracking all the way through from purchase from from the this ad or even the email send or whatever it is to the actual purchase, then you’re going to be missing a piece of the puzzle. And that’s a difference between organization that isn’t at that level yet, right? Like, or maybe just isn’t thinking that way and is earlier on in their kind of marketing, like either resourcing, understanding or evolution or whatever it is is like there are some organizations where just having the data of like, yes, oh my God, people clicked on the thing and we know that they bought something is enough, right? So knowing where you are affects knowing like affects the decision that you make about what you need to do with the system and it is due with the system, right? Like you already just said, this any system itself doesn’t have to have doesn’t have to answer that question for you. It just has to support the data in order to answer the question. So I think that’s very fair. If I’m an organization that, you know, we’re going to run two billboards on the highway and that’s our entire marketing plan, then the capabilities that we’re probably asking for is total overkill. So I absolutely appreciate you bringing that to the table. But I think my other side of the coin here is digital advertising is at least our point of view is is going to continue to become a larger and larger share of most organizations marketing budgets. And if we look at, you know, that biggest piece of the pie for advertisers that are investing in advertising, that biggest piece of the pie, the biggest line item in their overall marketing budget is the investment into advertising. So the biggest piece of the line, the biggest line item is once again, the dollars that we’re investing into advertising. And we’re seeing like that biggest part, the growing share of that line item is going to be digital advertising. So if we kind of want to set ourselves up for the future and I’m coming at this from one perspective, Michelle, I know that. But if we want to set ourselves up for the future, I think kind of these capabilities that Jenny’s mentioning would be kind of a must have. Yes. And I guess part of my take on it is most systems can do this. Like right? It’s it’s it’s actually you’re not you’re not asking for something so outrageous that it’s like, Oh, this is the real deal breaker here, right? And I would even, I guess, I guess part of what I’m arguing is that like literally as long as the system can enable the fact that you just said, right, which is we can track using pixels and tag manager. The purchase all the way from the click to the thing so we can do that revenue attribution. The how is actually less important because it’s going to get there. And my guess is that if there were a system where like if I was going out and trying to find a new taking system and that was I put that at the top top top of my list as a feature to be like as what am I assessing this system on? First of all, I’m going to get a lot of yeah, we do that. Second of all, if I found a system that led with that above all else, okay, what other really important operational needs are not going to be met, right? If they’re if you know because at that point are you a ticketing system or are you a digital marketing tool, right? Which is fine. It’s like you don’t have to it doesn’t have to all be one thing. That’s the thing as long as you’ve got as long as you’ve got a platform that has that is putting out the right data that has the right API and export and everything else capabilities. Right. This is me getting on the soap box a little bit about like vendors and focus and like whether things can be all things to all people or not, right? But like what is this tool for and what is it going to what is it great at and then what other tools does it talk to and work with that those tools can be great at, right? The overall picture of the solution is the thing that matters more than does this one literal system do everything we could possibly dream of. Yeah, and I think you’re right like the that online attribution. Actually, going back to what we were talking about before with people switching every couple of years as they grow, they’re going to need a new system, right? So I think you’re right going in and leading with a wish list of things that you’re not quite there yet for probably isn’t the right way to go about finding a new system. But you know, when it comes down to other things that you’re looking for, I think it’s just as someone representing the marketing team, you’ve got to have that list of things that you want. I think a few other things that we for people say that they couldn’t get and again, whether that was just because they didn’t know that they could get it or because it truly was not an option. We’re things like zip code reporting, right? We’ve had people come to us and say like we get most of our zip data from survey data and you know, or because a lot of the purchases happen at the gate versus online, they don’t get the zip data. So it’s just a questionnaire that that person gets at the gate and they have to fill out their zip code and then it’s, you know, a bunch of zip codes from New York that aren’t real, right? It’s one, two, three, four, five, not a true zip code because someone just didn’t feel like filling out this form. So some of these things seem like really basic and there’s probably some people listening or like, oh my gosh, there’s platforms out there that don’t give you this. But, but it, but again, knowing like what is important, again, that data, something that you’re going to want to utilize to make smarter marketing decisions, but you’re not expecting this platform to make all those decisions for you, right? But then like the audience segmentation, you might not be looking for a ticketing platform that’s also true CRM, but how can I segment data or segment, you know, ticket purchasers based off of a particular event or a member versus a non-member or they, you know, come on a weekend versus a weekday, right? Or whatever it is that you’re trying to look at, like you want to make sure that that tool that you’re using gives you the ability to break that down to that whether you’re using a separate CRM or not, you can feed it with this type of data to make smarter, you know, marketing decisions as well. So yeah, there’s got to be sort of this, even if it’s a laundry list, our laundry list is great. And then to your point, going through prioritizing what’s most important, knowing you might not get everything on the list, but you got to come to the table with that, that information. Most of the things that you have described as being important here, frankly feel like table stakes to me in a lot of ways, right? There’s a lot of this where it’s good, Lord, yes, of course, you should be able to get people to the current, right? And of course, you’ve got to be able to understand what is the set of people who have bought tickets or what is the set of people who are members. When we do our assessments, part of what we look at is we frame it as people and process and technology. So it is not just a straight up, “Oh, here is a list of system requirements and here’s all the boxes that we’re going to check.” A lot of the things that go wrong in the areas that you’re describing, I would attribute more to process and therefore also sort of people than the technology systems itself, right? And that’s a decision for an organization to make on purpose. Right? So if I think about just the example of zip code specifically, right? Let’s assume certainly on-line sales, because you’re giving your credit card information, there’s zip code information attached to that, right? So if we’re talking about the kind of door sales gate sales, that says to me that somewhere along the line, either the organization has thought about it and prioritized, “Oh no, we just need this 2b as fast as possible. We cannot possibly slow down for half a second to ask this other question or require this other information or whatever it is.” So, and that’s, I think, back to the question of like, “When should you bring it to Consulcent?” Right? Like, okay, if that’s a choice that you are making, what are going to be the impacts of that choice over here? And then vice versa, right? I don’t mean to belittle the idea of like, sometimes things do need to move really fast. And that’s a valid choice if it’s a choice, but it’s not a valid choice if you haven’t thought about, “Oh no, that means we’re not going to be able to get,” right? Like, no, like if you’re making a sacrifice, make it an intentional sacrifice. And I don’t think that’s what happened most most of the time. I think what happens most of the time is panic of, “Oh no, the lines are long. We have to move fast. We have to see this quickly. People don’t want to give us, like, whatever the reasons are, without situating that in the context of, “Okay, and without this information, we can’t do thing x, y, or z. Are we okay with that or not?” That changes what these objections were. Yeah, maybe it’s not so much like it’s the, I like what you said, there’s not really necessarily always the ticketing software, right? Or that platform that they’re using is not their fault. It’s just the lack of process in either using it right or making sure that that data is getting input. But I think it goes back to what we said before. It’s just the lack of education, understanding maybe how to use it, how to get that data in, what’s the best way to do it. And so, like, you know, your team can come in and help with all of that as well, too, not just selecting the actual platform. Which, what are you, what, what tool are you going to use? How are you going to use it? What are you trying to achieve? Five of those things. Michelle, what are some of your ideas to make sure that marketing would get a seat at the table when an organization is going to be making that big switch? I think, you know, I’ll just kind of repeat myself from what I’ve been saying about there’s a lot of people who should have a seat at the table, right? Any selection process or decision-making process in this that doesn’t bring front of house guest services and marketing and IT and depending on what, you know, membership, what way and/or fundraising, like, depending on what the scope of the thing that you’re looking for is, right? If you’re not bringing all of those voices to the table, you are not getting it right. And, again, not that every voice has to be equally loud and considered, but they’ve all got to be there. So, I would say at, like, within an organization, part of it is just inserting yourself and making sure that you’re there in those conversations, right? For you all, Denny and Ryan, specifically, you know, whoever it is that you’re working with, like, pushing them in that direction. You know, and anyone out there who doesn’t work in marketing, hi, bring your marketing colleagues to the table on the house. Excellent. Well, Michelle, so folks are interested in back office thinking, how can they get in touch with you guys? You can always email me. I sometimes answer my email. mPaul mpaul@backofficethinking.com. That’s our website backofficethinking.com. There’s also a contact form there. And I just want to, can I give one kind of final, final, summarizing thought here on this? A lot of what we talked about today is with common mistakes that people make or why do you not bring certain people to the table is really thinking about is your technology there to support your operational needs or your strategic needs or both? Spoilers, it’s probably both. And when things go wrong, it’s because folks get too focused on one of those areas versus the other. So that’s probably, like, number one takeaway tip is are you paying attention to your operational needs versus your strategic needs versus both? And if anybody wants to talk about that further with me, yeah, go to backofficethinking.com and send in a contact form and I would love to have a conversation. Awesome. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Marketing Attractions podcast. If you have a suggestion for a topic or would like to be a guest on the show, please visit our website at marketingattractionspodcast.com.