Selling More Memberships with Smarter Email Segmentation and Salesforce

You’re listening to the Marketing Attractions podcast. Conversations on how nonprofit attractions are increasing attendance and sharing their missions through marketing. Your hosts are Ryan Dick and Jenny Williams of Attend Media. Jenny today’s topic, selling more memberships with Salesforce. Memberships, we don’t really talk a ton about memberships on this podcast because I know what we typically talk about is institutions should be using their paid advertising dollars to get new visitors through the door. Right? Yes, but we are the Marketing Attractions podcast. We talk all things marketing and membership is something that marketing is often still responsible for. A lot of times the way they’re doing that is through email. Today, we’re going to chat with an expert about how to level up your email marketing, get a little bit more sophisticated and how you’re segmenting audiences. I think kind of moving away from a problem that we see across the board, even though it’s not really kind of our area that we play around in too much just from working with a lot of clients in the industry. I think we still see a lot of people using email as a way to send the same type of information to every single person in their email database. So how can we maybe get a little bit more sophisticated with how that information is coming across? And we have a great guest today who’s going to dive into all of that for us. What are you seeing? What’s the typical setup? I’m envisioning a lot of your clients are using a mail chimp or an M to send emails, right? What are the limitations there? What’s wrong with that? From my end, what’s wrong with it? So obviously on the advertising side, we do like to utilize email databases as an audience to target. So whether we’re suppressing an audience, whether we’re building look like some of an audience, how do we get more sophisticated or add targeting by utilizing someone’s first party data, which is going to be that email database. So I think one of the big things that I see there is yes, we can get an exported list of current members or yes, we can get exported list of people who visited last month or however we’re trying to target our segment of lists, but it’s still very, very manual and literally once it’s uploaded, it’s old. So if we upload a list on December 1st and on December 2nd, there could be a new member that’s not going to be in that list. So I think today we’ll talk a little bit about how we can improve that lag time and get a little bit more automated in that process, not only with email delivery, but then how email and advertising can work together as well. And where are you uploading these email lists, too? If you’re not doing the email, what’s the email list for? Mm-hmm. Yes, so those are getting uploaded and created as audiences within platforms like Meta and Google and through programmatic platforms as well, too, to target that audience within our paid advertising channels. God, it got it, got it. So typically what you’re saying is you’ll work with an institution and they will email or send you an email list of an audience that you want to not advertise to you. Like let’s say it’s your current membership list and we are running a display campaign or a campaign on Meta targeting, like, hey, become a member, you’re going to take that email list and say, Meta, do not advertise to these people, they’re already members. Is that my understanding? Mm-hmm. Maybe one way we would do it. Yep. Got it, got it, got it. All right. So I think I got my head around this a little bit. Yeah. I mentioned we do have a guest on this and expert. That’s why I like doing this podcast because we can talk to people across the space, across the spectrum of marketing. We have TJ Krishnson. He is the founding partner at Blue Gator. TJ, welcome to the podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I mean, watching Blue Gator love the name, Go Gators, right? Why don’t you take like 60 seconds? What is Blue Gator? Yeah. So we’re a, a cross-cloud sales force consulting firm. So what that means is we help organizations often migrate off of platforms like Tessitura, Razor’s Edge, into sales force for fundraising, connect ticketing systems with sales force. So they have their ticketing data, their membership data, and all their fundraising data in one system. Deduplicate that data so that they can then segment and activate it in marketing channels through marketing cloud. That’s essentially what we do. Okay. So I think to help answer that question about what does Blue Gator actually do? Let’s start with kind of what’s the future of email marketing look like for cultural attractions and when we’re thinking of our zoos and aquariums, gardens and museums. How are we getting more sophisticated in setting up these automations and creating more of these? Let’s just blasting everybody the same message. What’s it going to look like over then in 2026 and beyond? Yeah. There’s a big focus on how to become a personalization can be a little bit of a scary word but just better segmentation. So how do I segment my first time ticket buyers or visitors from my repeat visitors from my long time members to my first time members and just think about them in those big buckets to then talk to in a meaningful and personal way. I think that’s really the focus. A lot of organizations because their systems are disconnected are sort of batch and blasting audiences where you’re doing a big donor message and you’re suppressing just the major donors but everyone else who’s donated in all of eternity is getting this email or all of our ticket purchasers are getting this and there may be some de-duplication but really sort of the cross section of who is a member donor and a visitor to a special event like holiday lights or something like that. There’s different ways to speak to those audiences and getting more sophisticated in that and I think that’s what organizations are trying to try and figure out these days. All right. I’ve also got this note for RFM. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah. So RFM is like a, I’ll get to that in a second. The baseline just to kind of like what they’re trying to do is they want to take someone that bought a ticket and after they visit send them a message to become a member or if someone’s a last, a lapsed member and they come back and visit again on a daily ticket try and reactivate their membership, right? Hey, would you like to become, you know, come back to the zoo as a member or something like that? Those sorts of things are like low hanging fruit of what people want to do. RFM is like a marketing 301 course, right? It’s not 201. It’s like the next level of that and RFM stands for recent C frequency and monetary and a lot of big brands use it. So the example that I like to use is, is fast food. So McDonald’s, we’re all familiar with McDonald’s, they’ll look at RFM and there’s three different, so a recent C frequency monetary. There’s three different scores and they’ll combine those scores for a cohort of people. So for example, if I’m someone that goes to McDonald’s every single day and buys a cup of coffee on my way to work, I have high frequency. It was this morning. I have high, high, high, high, high, recency. It was this morning, high frequency. I come five days a week and low monetary because I’m just spending $3 or whatever a cup of coffee is there. They might have another cohort of people and they might consider that like a loyal, I don’t even know what the real name for it, what they would call it, but it’s like a loyal, low, low, low spender, right? Then they might have someone that goes every Saturday morning with their family for breakfast, right? There may be spending $100 or $50 at McDonald’s once a week, so their recency was last week, last Saturday. Their frequency is once a week and their monetary spend is higher. And from a marketing perspective, they’ll look at those cohorts of people and activate them in different ways. So for every day coffee user, what they’ll do is they’ll say, okay, how do we get this loyal, low spender to spend a little bit more? We’re going to give them a special deal for a free Egg McMuffin next time they come. So now next time I go, I’m like, oh great, I’ll give them Egg McMuffin while I’m going. And if I have a good experience, now maybe every third time I’m buying that Egg McMuffin, I’m spending there, right? And you do the same thing on the family that comes, how do we activate that person and maybe become that everyday coffee drinker, right? So, and it’s an easy way to think about big buckets and segments and then having organizations like, oh, well, this is how we would activate that cohort and then put them in automated segments and go. So, couldn’t you do that with like a Mailchimp or an Emma, I, like, I love the McDonald’s idea, but doesn’t that already kind of come in the box of an email marketing platform? Does McDonald’s use Emma or Mailchimp? I can tell you the answer is probably no. So yeah, maybe, okay, so let’s think of a good example here then with us. Zoomer and Aquarian because, you know, they’re probably not going to have, there’s going to be a handful of probably weekly visitors with those really, really loyal close by members, right? But I don’t know, give us an example to where if I’m a marketing director, I can think of like a way to segment my list other than member, non-member events and general admission. Yeah. And so here’s an example. So, I call it like the Strollover Gate. So if you’ve been to a zoo or if you’ve had kids, most often when your kids are maybe even before preschool age, you’re trying to find stuff to do on a regular basis with the kids. And a lot of zoos will have like all these kids’ parents show up with their kids, right? When the doors open, they’ll walk their kids around. There’s like, there’s like, mommy meetups and there’s like all those things. They’ll meet up and they’ll go and they’ll walk the zoo to get the kids out and about and socialize and stuff like that. So what does that audience look like? High-reasoncy. They came this week. High-frequency. They’re coming two or three times a week. They’re also looking at people that visit from when the gate opens and before lunch because usually they’re trying to get out of there before lunch. They’re really loyal members but they don’t spend any money. The per-caf spend is like zero outside of the membership. So you can create an audience of those folks by looking by that criteria. What tickets were scanned in more than three times a week of the last 30 days on average? And between the hours of 8 a.m. and 10 a.m., right? Because you know your dwell time is usually an hour or something like that. Then you can take that cohort of people and put them into a campaign and say, hey, just like the McDonald’s guy, we’re going to give him a free-veg McMuffin. We’re going to do a kids-eat-free lunch. So the kids are going to eat free for lunch. So they’re like, oh great, we’ll have a treat today. We’ll eat at the zoo here with all of our friends. And if your kids are like mine, the next time you go to the zoo, good luck getting out of there without having to eat lunch at the zoo. And that becomes part of the routine and you’re able to edge up that cohort of people into a higher per cap spend, increasing their monetary value on the RFM spectrum, right? So that’s an example of how you would activate that sort of strategy in a little bit more sophisticated way of just like who bought a ticket and make a member. Yeah, I guess McDonald’s doesn’t use mail-champ. Okay, good point, TJ. But it seems like these capabilities are kind of baked into a platform like Razor’s Edge or a platform like Tessitura. Can you talk to us about the difference between Salesforce and Razor’s Edge? Let’s just tackle that one first. Sure. Yeah, so we run into those platforms all the time. And the difference between those types of platforms is there are limitations to what they have integrated with, right? So Tessitura, I don’t know for certain, but I think there’s like two or three different email providers that you have options to use. So their data moves up into that. So, and that might be well and good, but you’ve only got three. Razor’s Edge, even more restricted on what sort of tools and things like that you can use. One of the reasons we chose to become Salesforce consultants was because of the platform’s ability to integrate data and send data out. And Salesforce has the app exchange as part of the platform. So just like on an iPhone, I can go to an app store and download apps into my phone. You can do the same thing on Salesforce. So there’s thousands of apps out there. There’s all sorts of different email providers. There’s not even just native Salesforce ones but others. There’s all sorts of online giving platforms, volunteer platforms, well screening platforms, all of those sorts of things. So you don’t have to be in like an arranged marriage with one particular provider. You can really choose the best and breed for you based on cost, based on sophistication, based on capabilities and integrated into that platform for better segmentation and automation. The other thing that Salesforce does a really, really good job at using an app exchange product or products is data duplication. So ticketing systems get a bad rap for all the data’s MS. There’s tons of duplicates. The reality is they’re not built for data hygiene. They’re built for providing entitlements and benefits quickly to someone making a transaction. So you have to know that when you bring that data in on how can you automate that data duplication as that’s coming into your CRM to not slow it down to then take action on it as they’re scanning into the gate or whatever. So those are some of the baseline things that we’re super passionate about on the Salesforce platform that we haven’t found any of these other platforms are really good at at scale. So that’s the key difference for me. Can we talk about the data duplication for a second? So if we’re thinking about like the, you know, these audiences being segmented, right? Our mom who’s coming once or twice a week, right, with her friends that you just talked about. That’s one audience, but then she could also be in the group of members, but then she could also be in the group of someone who came for wildlife. So in that instance, when you’re sending out, if you’re segmenting these audiences and maybe your current email platform and you’re sending it out, that person’s getting maybe all three or four or five of those emails you’re sending that week versus figuring out which one is she the best one for or the highest priority for to get that particular message, right? That’s what we’re talking about with this benefit of deduplicating these audiences. Yeah, and it’s a cut more complicated than that too, right? So some members when they go to renew will renew. Some members don’t remember their login or who renew? Did I buy it originally or my wife bought it originally and they’ll just buy a new one, right? So in that case, you have two TGA Christians in the ticketing system. So when you’re running your or you have a TGA Christian and a Jamie Christian in your system, they’re the same household and you go to do a renewal campaign. Jamie’s renewed and TGA keeps getting hammered with renew your membership, renew your membership and it’s like, man, I renewed it. Like we bought it like a month ago already. So you’ve got to be able to look at the household collectively and say, hey, this person over here, the secondary member from last year is now renewed. They’re the primary. So suppress this person from the renewal message when they’re in renewal motion, send it to both of them because you don’t know who’s going to renew. But once the household is renewed, suppress the other one. So the other thing is, I like to use my name as an example. So I could buy a ticket as TGA. I could buy a membership as TGA or as Tim and I could donate as Timothy. You could have three different records inside of your CRM with me. Out intelligent tools to say, okay, score the address this much and email that much and phone that much and say, okay, actually TGA, Tim and Timothy are the same person. Let’s collapse that into one identity inside of Salesforce and then subsequently layer in all the transactions and interactions and things like that. Those are the things that are really powerful for even just the simple, if you’re going to batch and blast, otherwise you’re having those systems integrated, whether you’re using more robust email tools or even MailChimp, that data duplication is really key to making sure you’re not just accidentally hammering the same person four times because they were trying to gain the system on discounts or just inconsistent with how they buy stuff based on how they enter the credit card information. We’re listening to the Marketing Attractions podcast. Conversations on how non-profit attractions are increasing attendance and sharing their mission through marketing. Your hosts are Ryan Dick and Jenny Williams of Attend Media. Attend Media is a media planning and buying agency, specializing in Zeus, McQuarriums, Gardens and Museums. For more information, please visit attend.media. Now back to Ryan and Jenny. All right, TJ. Why, if I am the Marketing Director of a local zoo, why would I do this? What’s in it for me? I’m thinking, you know, your McDonald’s example is awesome, but maybe are we really going to get that sophisticated way that like, what’s this going to do in the long run for me because it sounds like a lot of work? Yeah, so I think there’s two specific drivers for it. And some people are doing this, right? So if you can do this, then great. It’s about how do you improve your metrics. But we often talk to people about what the ROI of this, of moving in this direction is, because it is not a light lift. It’s pretty hefty to build all of this, to be able to do these things. So like, you know, the attractions that we’re working with, venues that we’re working with, are typically about half a million in up in attendance. So just to use simple numbers, let’s say that there’s a venue that does a million clicks of the turn style visits a year, right? So typically, membership is about 300,000 of that. 30% of that million is members coming back and back and back. Group visitation, so school groups and stuff like that is about 100,000. That leaves you with about 600,000 like unique clicks through the gate. If you’re selling 30% of your tickets online, we could have a whole other podcast of why you should push everything online. But let’s say you sell 30% of your tickets online that leaves you with 180,000 tickets sold online. If your average card size is three, that leaves you with 60,000 unique emails or orders that you can communicate with, right? So let’s use that 60,000 number. If the upgrade to a membership, a family membership at a zoo or a garden or something like that is 150 bucks on average, that’s the number we’re looking at. So we can convert one percent of that 60,000 at $150. That’s $90,000 in revenue that you’ve unlocked. You haven’t generated more. You’ve unlocked it. It’s there to be had. You just have to unlock the revenue. And if you can convert 3%, that’s $270,000 a year. So that is meaningful dollars to your mission, your operating budget, all of that stuff to be able to do that sort of marketing. And again, a lot of organizations are like, okay, well, we can get the ticketing data out. We can send an email that they visited in a membership. That’s fine. But once they have the membership, it’s about retention, right? It’s a retention game. And every year, they have to do another go-get of what does that look like on our membership. So again, let’s say our current membership base is 40,000 members, right? And our retention rate is at 60%, which is good. 60% of people are renewing every single year. If the average member price, and I’m going to cheat, cheat sheets, so the member price this time is $175. The value of my membership program is $2 million. So I’m trying to grow that every year. But even if I’m just trying to be flat, that’s a large go-get every year. That 40% of that $2 million I have to go get every year. Now, it’s, so you’re retaining about 1.2 million a year. If using journeys like recognizing first visit, so glad you kicked off the season with us. If anything was not up to expectation or something like that, please reach out. Good opportunity for engagement and level set and dedicated service. You could do surprise into light on the third or fifth visit. Say your average visitation for membership is three, going back to our RFM. And you know if you can get someone to go from three visits a year to four visits a year, your retention is much higher. You can send them something, recognizing that visit. Thank you for visiting us three times this year. We can’t wait to see you back one more time. And as a token of our appreciation, here’s a free dip in dots. I don’t know, something like that, right? Or bring a friend. You now got them to four. Or asking them to come to the gala or something like that. Or hey, you’ve came four times. Now we’d love to have you come and do a VIP backstage tour with our fundraising, TJ the fundraising guy or whatever, you know, something like that. So you can do all of those things or if someone’s inactive, they haven’t visited in three months and you want to pull them into the venue because they’re at risk, right? They have this membership. They haven’t used it. It’s unutilized. You’re not using something. You’re not going to renew it. So there’s those sorts of things that you can automate with these platforms. And if you can increment from 60 percent, if you can increase your retention from 60 percent to 62 percent, just two percentage points, that’s another $100,000 that you’re retaining every year. You don’t have that additional $800,000 pressure that go get pressure to get. So every, every percentage point is about $50,000 in retained revenue, which again helps you build your membership programs versus just chasing, chasing your tail to maintain the level of 60 percent. So these are the things that you can do with these automated platforms where you’re not having to wrestle with spreadsheets. You’re not having to wrestle with these journeys. You sort of get them set up. You get the audience’s set up when they hit a criteria. They’re automatically put into it when they don’t meet that criteria anymore, i.e. someone renews, someone in the household renews, they don’t get the email anymore. They get a different journey, that kind of stuff. And you can set up these robust engagement sort of things throughout their membership lifetime that can help you not just drive new memberships in the easy sort of bought a ticket by a membership, but even retention and then moving them into maybe, maybe someone’s been a long time five year member, it’s not about retention with them now. It’s now about getting them into a campaign to become a reoccurring donor, 20 bucks a month, something like that. So those are the sorts of things that you can do with these platforms that get really exciting. And can change the game financially, which then justify the investment upfront? Yeah, like the, just again, the automation piece of it and I’m thinking to kind of, we kick this episode off talking about how that database feeds into advertising rates. So being able to streamline that connection, I guess, into, from your email database, that first party data that you have a known into ad platforms like meta and like Google, you know, I get on my end, I’m saying it’s December 1st, I get that list or, you know, that list is uploaded and created in meta by December 2nd, it’s already outdated. So I don’t know if you have any good examples of maybe how some people are utilizing it in ad platforms that you could share, but I never my end. This is sounds like, you know, the golden nugget here for how I could maintain those, those audiences more effectively within platforms if a client is utilizing this type of, or these types of programs together. Yeah, and it’s changing a little bit in the Salesforce ecosystem, but in marketing cloud, they had a, if there’s some setting that platform and moving to a different sort of offering within Salesforce. But essentially, you can publish those audiences out so that you, as, you know, your company can pick up that audience and put it in meta and it’s updated daily, right? So if someone is no longer, so an example would be, we have an audience, say an organization has two priorities for the holiday season one. We want everyone to come to holiday lights and two, if they’ve come to holiday lights, we want everyone to buy a gift of membership, right? And we can’t have them in both audiences at the same time. So first thing is get people to holiday lights to huge budget for us, huge, huge budget maker for us. So we would extend an audience to you that you could pick up and you could use in meta or Facebook and you could put an ad that’s like holiday lights, you know, you got to check it out this year, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And as soon as someone buys holiday lights, we’re pulling them out of that audience. So you never have to update it. It’s just updated automatically. Then they popped into the gift of membership one, right? And you’ve got those running inside of meta so that they’re automatically now in the gift of membership one. So they hit priority one and now we’re moving on to priority two within our marketing hierarchy of what to try and get them to buy or purchase or engage. And from your perspective, it makes it really easy. It’s like, I don’t have to pull, keep asking for lists and scrubbing lists and stuff like that. It’s just like, hey, I’m going to pull this, this feed and this feed is going to give me, we’ve set what the criteria is. And as soon as they don’t meet this, then we’re going to, you know, we’re going to push this ad in and you don’t have to kind of like switch and say, okay, we’re going to do. All right, holiday lights about half over. Do you want to switch now to the gift membership stuff? So we’re not double hitting people and all that kind of stuff. You just run them both and people won’t, won’t, won’t by nature of the way the system works won’t be in both, both audiences. Yeah. Love that. The de-dublication of those groups is incredibly important when it gets to our ad campaigns as well. Yeah. And after they buy gift of membership, maybe you try and put them back into a thing to buy another holiday lights. Come back again and see us, you know? Or even if they’ve bought a ticket already, they don’t have to be hit up by the same ad over and over again. That increases the efficiency of the ad spend, right? Yeah. Yeah. All right, TJ. Here it comes. How hard is this? You kind of, you hint at it earlier, you’re typically working with half a million in annual visitation per year. What kind of like timeline? Like how easy of a lift? I mean, I just hit a button, right? Totally. You wave them at your phone. I think you would even have a name hit a button. That’s right. That’s right. So it depends where you’re at, right? So if organizations, there’s sort of two different groups of organizations that we work with. There are those that are trying to set the foundation. So they’re on a ticketing system over here, a fundraising system over here, an email system over here, and we’ve got to integrate the data. We’ve got to move on to Salesforce and integrate everything. But because the razor’s edge migration or whatever it is, that’s a pretty big lift, it’s usually like, hey, we’re going to migrate you and get you settled into the new platform. That’s usually nine to 12 months of like, okay, we now have a foundation now. What do we want to do next, right? And then it’s an ongoing iteration. So it’s a year of sort of like pulling everything together and then setting the stage, and there’s some easy wins in there, but setting the stage for doing all the things in RFM and all that kind of stuff moving forward from there. There’s also organizations that have already invested in the Salesforce architecture, and maybe it’s just layering on Marketing Cloud, which is a little bit of a lighter lift, or maybe they already have Marketing Cloud, but they haven’t quite figured out how to do these things altogether because we found that a lot of consultants will specialize in Salesforce or Marketing Cloud, but not both. That’s why we specialize in both because the art and science of times together to be able to activate the data that’s here up here is really important. So we’re talking to a lot of organizations specifically this year that have invested in both platforms, but they’re like, hey, look, we need some help trying to figure out how to do the things that you’re talking about. That is, it’s not an easy button, but it’s easier. It’s more like a three, six month of like really seeing meaningful returns on the investment of the infrastructure that you’ve already put in place. Often times when we come into those, we can move very fast on some quick wins within the first month, but it depends on what they have going. But yeah, there’s all sorts of opportunities there. So for folks who are on zero, it’s probably a year, folks that already have the infrastructure, it’s probably a quarter of engagement until we’re rocking and rolling. And what is the investment in terms of time and energy with the internal team? And double barrel question, which I know not supposed to do, but who’s doing this? Who are you typically working with in a cultural attraction? So what’s the kind of the role and what is the weekly, monthly, daily type of time and investment are you seeing? Yeah, so we’re meeting with our clients on a weekly basis to work through these things, right? And it depends by organization. A lot of times on the marketing stuff, we’re usually working with the marketing teams. We might be working with the DBA or someone that’s a Salesforce admin or some of the understands, some of these folks already have it in snowflake or some sort of data warehouse. But yeah, it’s a small team. Like we’re working with very large organizations that have one or two people that are trying to do these things. So we’re working with small teams and we’re an extra set of hands to then accelerate that. So yeah, I mean, I don’t know if that answers your question, but that’s my answer. Yeah, and then what are the other limitations we should be thinking of? So it sounds like you got to work with TJ, your team and blue gator. You’ve got to be a Salesforce client. How about, is there other software like from the email standpoint that you can or can’t work with? Well, we specialize in Salesforce, but we have, you know, there are people that are using acoustic or interable or all sorts of platforms and things like that. That’s not our specialty, so I can’t speak to like what exactly the capabilities are. Maybe you can do those same things. Our playbook is around the marketing or sort of the Salesforce stack because we know how tightly connected those are and the ability to act in real time. So yeah, but there’s lots of add-on tools. If you’re using movable link, right, you can integrate that into marketing cloud. So you’re getting the benefits of movable link and marketing cloud. You’re having a lot of organizations will use like zero bounds to cleanse their, because even when people buy tickets, those emails sometimes aren’t great. So good data hygiene or email hygiene, I’m making sure that you don’t have soft or hard bounces and removing those from your sends to make sure that you’re not damaging your center profile are really important. So there’s lots of tools out there and that’s the other thing we like about Salesforce. They typically integrate with the platform somewhere along the way, whether it’s marketing cloud or Salesforce CRM. I do want to give a shout out to an episode we did. Gosh, a ways back with the Palm Beach Zoo. If you like some of the stuff that TJ is talking about, give that episode a lesson. A lesson. It’s with Aaron Ward, she was a marketing director at the Palm Beach Zoo, talking about that surprise and delight type of mentality within an institution. All right, good stuff, TJ. If people want to take the dive and go into all in with Blue Gator and Salesforce, how can people get in touch with you? Yeah, so if you’re looking to dip a toe in the water, we do have a blog series that we keep up on, usually about biweekly that talks all about this stuff. So subscribe to the blogs. You can follow us on LinkedIn or reach out directly to their DM me on LinkedIn or you can submit on our forum on the website or email me at tj.chrishensensch. @BlueGator.com and happy to chat. Go figure. TJ has got an email address. TJ, thank you so much. Thanks for making us a lot smarter in the email marketing world. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Marketing Attractions podcast. If you have a suggestion for a topic or would like to be a guest on the show, please visit our website at MarketingAttractionsPodcast.com.